This is a practice that is practiced among some believers. It is the process by which the church expels a member
What grounds are believe to be that members should be expelled?
The belief of certain denominations teach that there are three reasons for excommunication or not to be allowed to fellowship within the church undisciplined.
1 Guilty of a "sin unto death"
Don't you know that unrighteous people will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't delude yourselves - people who engage in sex before marriage, who worship idols, who engage in sex after marriage with someone other than their spouse, who engage in active or passive homosexuality, who steal, who are greedy, who get drunk, who assail people with contemptuous language, who rob - none of them will share in the Kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 cjb)
Sin unto death according to some denominations means that a person has sin that by thier very nature separate us from God. A list of these occur in Galatians
And it is perfectly evident what the old nature does. It expresses itself in sexual immorality, impurity and indecency; involvement with the occult and with drugs; in feuding, fighting, becoming jealous and getting angry; in selfish ambition, factionalism, intrigue and envy; in drunkenness, orgies and things like these. I warn you now as I have warned you before: those who do such things will have no share in the Kingdom of God! (Galatians 5:19-21 cjb)
2 One who refuses to accept correction
"Moreover, if your brother commits a sin against you, go and show him his fault -- but privately, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won back your brother. If he doesn't listen, take one or two others with you so that every accusation can be supported by the testimony of two or three witnesses.l If he refuses to hear them, tell the congregation; and if he refuses to listen even to the congregation, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax-collector. (Matthew 18:15-17 cjb)
3 One who errs in Doctrine
Warn a divisive person once, then a second time; and after that, have nothing more to do with him. (Titus 3:10 cjb)
Should a person be allowed back in to fellowship?
Most denominations who follow excommunication believe that when the person comes back with repentance that it is in the churches best interest to forgive the person and allow them back in to the fellowship
Reasons for and Against (Not all of them but some)
Reasons Against
goes against "judging a mans heart" the thought comes in how will they be convicted of wrong
Reasons for.
so that the sin does not spread through the church like leaven
It's easy for me to turn my life over to God but my will? it's an everyday thing.
I'm catholic
I don't really have thoughts on this, but I do have an experience. My sister in law wanted to get married and her pastor wouldn't marry her and her fiance because they lived together before they got married. Now, she's getting married (to a different guy, the last guy turned out to be really creepy) in a catholic church.
I believe in excommunication/disfellowship because it is clearly taught in the Bible.
Those man-made institutions can kid themselves all they want to, once a son of God always a son of God.
@Christenstein - believe in, and confess, a ban, separation, and Christian correction in the church, for amendment, and not for destruction, in order to distinguish that which is pure from the impure: namely, when any one, after he is enlightened, has accepted the knowledge of the truth, and been incorporated into the communion of the saints, sins again unto death, either through willfulness, or through presumption against God, or through some other cause, and falls into the unfruitful works of darkness, thereby becoming separated from God, and forfeiting the kingdom of God, that such a one, after the deed is manifest and sufficiently known to the church, may not remain in the congregation of the righteous, but, as an offensive member and open sinner, shall and must be separated, put away, reproved before all, and purged out as leaven; and this for his amendment, as an example, that others may fear, and to keep the church pure, by cleansing her from such spots, lest, in default of this, the name of the Lord be blasphemed, the church dishonored, and offense given to them that are without; and finally, that the sinner may not be condemned with the world, but become convinced in his mind, and be moved to sorrow, repentance, and reformation. Jer. 59:2; I Cor. 5:5, 13; I Tim. 5:20; I Cor. 5:6; II Cor. 10:8; 13:10.
Further, concerning brotherly reproof or admonition, as also the instruction of the erring it is necessary to exercise all diligence and care, to watch over them and to admonish them with all meekness, that they may be bettered, and to reprove, according as is proper, the stubborn who remain obdurate; in short, the church must put away from her the wicked (either in doctrine or life), and no other. Jas. 5:19; Titus 3:10; I Cor. 5:13.
I believe in withholding the fellowship of Communion, membership, whatever, from those who are clearly living in sin. I have, however, been the personal recipient of the withdrawal of people's interaction, love, and courtesy simply because we differed in some 'gray area' doctrinal issues. (Amish background, that should explain it.) I don't feel the latter is ever right, but the former is. It is only correct if done to an unrepentant person, however; it should never be used as a punishment for someone who has confessed and repented. I also feel it should be done without exception or respect of persons. For instance, an unrepentant church leader who holds a personal grudge should be as promptly removed as the rebellious young man living with his girlfriend. So many times, we are in a great hurry to throw out faltering new believers, but are ever so careful of a seasoned person's 'reputation'. Respect for leadership should not include tolerating sin. Just my opinion.
I don't think that is a right thing to do, to essentially kick someone out of church when they need the most help. I can understand making a person in a position of power step down because of the reasons mention, but not to excommunicate them. How do we expect them to come out of their sin without fellowship from other Christians?
@Kristenmomof3 - Once a son of God always a son of God. Nothing can separate a person from the love of Christ Jesus. Dis-fellowshippping or no dis-fellowshipping, once a person is accepts Jesus Christ as Savior with genuine and true faith, the person is always a child of God. The entire notion of dis-fellowshipping and not dis-fellowshipping someone is also meaningless in the protestant context as pointed out in one of the Utube videos. Those man-made protestant institutions can kid themselves all they want, their man-made doctrines can mean expulson in one church and not another. Who are they kidding... The entire secular world looks at Christianity and thinks its a big joke because we cannot argue and now, we are talking about and dis-fellowshpping other Christians while another church accepts them... One for the Kingdome indeed... People should be concentrating on the gospel instead of things that divide. Jesus loves all those who believe in Him.
great post Barry. i like how you explained the pro and con and reasons for caution. thanks brotha. =)
@mikenpeg - i believe in it too, but think it should be done very carefully too. since we are all fallen and prone to sin, we mess up sometimes. i am sorry for what you have been through. i, and some others, have had some unfortunate situations also -- but i've come to forgive and realize what my own hands are capable of - hopefully, like Barry talks about here, the goal should be toward restoration, repentance and reconciliation if possible.
@Christenstein - what are your thoughts on the scripture verses quoted?
@Christenstein - "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." (1 Corinthians 5:11)
@Kristenmomof3 - Under the context of which protestant church doctrine, did you watch that Utube video? Are we discussing what is being posted or an entirely different thing? Quite frankly, I am not arguing about whether we should keep idolaters, fornicators, drunkards, etc. in the church if they are not repentant. I am talking about what is placed here for discussion, the two videos that talks about differences in doctrine.
@AlterEgo909 - yes, i do know what you mean here. i agree that there should be extreme caution, and that people who are messed up in a lot of sin need support. unfortunately, i've known people who were excommunicated who were homeless or had been acting out due to frustration from other victimization they had endured. discernment, humility and seeking God should be paramount before making any rash decisions...but we are all sinners; unfortunately we know how to hurt each other unnecessarily sometimes.
@Christenstein - - yes, i agree about always being a child of God.
@Christenstein - @AlterEgo909 - "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." (1 Corinthians 5:11)
"A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject." (Titus 3:10.)
This implies that the church disapproves the person as a Christian: it cannot any longer charitably look upon him as a saint, or fellow-worshipper of God, and can do no other than, on the contrary, esteem him an enemy of God, and so doth openly withdraw its charity from him ceasing to acknowledge him as a fellow-Christian, any more than the heathens. He is also cut off from that honour which is due to brethren and fellow-Christians. To be a visible Christian is an honourable character but excommunicated persons forfeit this honour. Christians ought not to pay that honour and respect to them which they pay to others, but should treat them as unworthy of such honour, that they may be ashamed. Christ tells us, they should "be unto us as heathen men and publicans," (Matthew 18:17) which implies a withdrawing from them that common respect which we pay to others. We ought to treat them so as to let them plainly see that we do not count them worthy of it, to put them to shame.
Much love and complacency is due to those whom we are obliged in charity to receive as saints, because they are visible Christians. But this complacency excommunicated persons forfeit. We should still wish well to them. and seek their good. Excommunication itself is to be performed as an act of benevolence. We should seek their good by it, and it is to be used as a means of their eternal salvation. But complacency and delight in them as visible Christians is to be withdrawn; and on the contrary they are to be the objects of displacency, as visibly and apparently wicked. We are to cast them out as an unclean thing which defiles the church of God. - In this sense the psalmist professes a hatred of those who were the visible enemies of God. Psalm 139:21, 22. "Do I not hate them, O Lord, that hate thee! And am I not grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred." Not that he hated them with a hatred of malice or ill will, but with displacency and abhorrence of their wickedness. In this respect we ought to he the children of our Father who is in heaven, who, though he loves many wicked men with a love of benevolence, yet cannot love them with a love of complacency. Thus excommunicated persons are cut off from the charity of the church
2 Thessalonians 3:6. To avoid them;
Romans 16:17. To have no company with them;
2 Thessalonians 3:14. And to treat than as heathens and publicans;
Matthew 18:17. The people of God are, as much as may be, to withdraw from them as to that common society which is proper to subsist among Christians. - Not that they should avoid speaking to them on any occasion. All manner and all degrees of society are not forbidden, but all unnecessary society, or such as is wont to be among those who delight in the company of each other. We should not associate ourselves with them so as to make them our companions. Yea, there ought to be such an avoiding of their company as may show great dislike.
@YouTOme - A very deceptive and dangerous doctrine that is supported by many professing Christians is the concept that is referred to as eternal security or once saved always saved.
These terms refer to a spiritual guarantee that once we have "accepted the Lord Jesus Christ" as our personal Saviour, then we are secure for all of eternity regardless of lifestyle. For a converted person, one whose life has been completely changed, there is, of course, a wonderful feeling of security as we think about eternity. That feeling of security in Jesus Christ will remain with us as long as we walk with the Lord and do His will. In that sense, we can find "eternal security" in our salvation.
However, it is very important that as children of God we recognize that we can walk away from our salvation. If we allow ourselves to go places or engage in activities that expose us to danger, we are tempting God and giving Satan an opportunity to cause spiritual shipwreck. These unwholesome activities can weaken our resistance and may cause us to fall.
Numerous passages of scripture state clearly that it is possible for a child of God to return to sin. "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" (I Tim. 4:1). "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee" (I Tim. 4:16).
Paul was instructing Timothy to be watchful of the false doctrine he would encounter that could deceive him and cause him to be careless. Several words in these passages are especially important "depart" and "continue". Clearly we cannot depart from something we never had, nor can we "continue" something we have not begun. Therefore, we are sure that Paul was speaking to Timothy about converted people.
In the last days, there will be believers who will be convinced to turn away from Christ and return to sin. There will also be those who grow impatient for Christ's return. They will be deceived and will try to convince others that the promises God made about Christ's return to claim his bride, the Church, are false. "...there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation" (II Pet. 3:3-4). We must patiently continue to "hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown' (Rev. 3:11).
In the Book of Revelation, John wrote about those who at one time had placed the Lord first in their lives but had allowed themselves to grow careless and were very much in danger of losing their place in God's favor. "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works, or else I will come unto thee quickly, and remove thy candlestick out of his place..." (Rev. 2:4-5).
We take great comfort in the promise that "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,..." (Rev. 3:5). This would certainly indicate that the faithful, the overcomers, will retain their place in the Book of Life. The importance of this is emphasized when John wrote "...and another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,..." (Rev. 20:12).
Jesus explained to His disciples of the dangers and deceit that His followers would face before the end times. There will be false teachers and much sin in the world. "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (Matt. 24:11-12). The only way for love to wax cold is for it to exist. Again, clearly Christ was speaking of those who once loved the Lord but allowed sin to intervene and their love for Christ grew cold.
Jesus Christ did not leave His disciples without hope. He promised them "But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved" (Matt. 24:13). This beautiful promise would not have been needed unless there was a danger of falling away.
Not only do we need to be careful that we are not deceived by others, we must be careful that self-confidence does not cause us to grow careless. "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (I Cor. 10:12). We must also remain dependent upon the Lord to keep us safe and in His love. "How excellent is thy loving kindness, 0 God! Therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings" (Ps. 36:7).
In addition to the danger of puffing trust in ourselves and losing our salvation, we must also not put our trust in riches. "...an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:.. following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness" (II Pet. 2:14-15).
Numerous other scripture passages could be cited that help us understand the false doctrine of once saved, always saved. Time and space do not permit a complete list but a few more are simply listed without comment. "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:62). "But now, after ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage" (Ga. 4:9). "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire" (II Pet. 2:22).
In spite of the seriousness and frequency of the warning in the Holy Scriptures that those who have become followers of Christ would return to sin and lose their salvation, there is no need for a child of God to despair. To each of the seven churches that are addressed in Revelation, a promise of a secure eternity was made to those that overcome and remain faithful. That promise is still in effect for us today.
also "For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world" (II Tim. 4:10).
"Holding faith, and a good conscience, which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme" (I Tim. 1:19, 20). "But now, after that ye [Galatians] have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?. . .I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain" (Gal. 4:9, 11).
No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:62).
"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God" (Heb. 3:12).
"Remember Lot's wife" (Luke 17:32).
"Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief" (Heb. 4:11).
"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (I Cor. 10:12).
"Beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness" (II Pet. 3:17).
"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me . . . If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned . . . If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love" (John 15:4, 6, 10).
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame" (Heb. 6:4-6).
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (II Thess. 2:3).
Our eternal destiny is conditional not only on our becoming a child of God, but on remaining one --persevering in the faith unto death. "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God (II Cor. 7:1).
"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (II Pet. 1:10, 11).
@Kristenmomof3 - Yes, that's what the Bible says. You are missing my pooint. The first Utube video makes a point about how it pointless and it is even more pointless when you look at the entire excommunication process from the secular perspective. It only works if Christians are united and with one mind and thought (i.e. it has a greater meaning in the Catholic church).
That's why we need Christ as our head and the church needs to be a spiritual church led by the Holy Spirit, not man-made institutions. The church of Joe can excommunicate Jane and Jane can join the church of Doe. Jane can join another group of believers that agree with doctrine A while believers that do not agree with doctrine A excommunicates her. I am not discussion reasons 1 and 2. I am discussing reason 3. There is this contradictory communication because they are both man-made institutions.
@Christenstein - so are you saying we should not follow the bible because they can just go find a sinfull pool to wash it. Then how would the church be salt and light? Should we not hold the standard of the bible. On judgment day do you think that it will be ok to say to YHWH "well we didn't hold standard because then people would have just went elsewhere?" Letting the rest of the church to be corrupted by the sin. The bible is clear...A little leaven, leavens the whole batch
This is probably the toughest question I could ever be asked. I think the believer disfellowships himself or herself apart from any act of the church by sinning. Attendance at church and interaction with believers becomes empty. The formal act is necessary though, for both the sake of the body and the sake of the individual. The body must remain pure, and the individual must be brought to stark and painful awareness of their separation. Upon repentance, I do think that a believer should be readmitted without further conditions. The permanent excommunication of a believer constitutes condemnation, which I believe to be a grave mistake.
Yahshua called Simon "Rock", even though he knew that Simon would eventually deny him three times. Yahshua knew what "Peter" would become, and looked beyond his transgression on the day they met. When Peter denied Yahshua, he wept bitterly without anyone's accusation or condemnation - Peter felt separation. But look how he finished.
@Kristenmomof3 - - but you see, that increases pride and fear amongst us if we think that we have to strive or work to secure our salvation. that makes the cross not enough. but the cross is enough. His mercy and grace is more than enough -- especially for the sinner next to him on the cross..he did nothing to earn his salvation. it was all grace. it's all about HIm. but see, when the focus is on what we do, then we will always fail. even good intentioned, we will never have the goodness enough in us to perpetuate salvation for ourselves. no, only Christ alone can give us the love for one another and even for Him. when i was deserving of it the very least, God saved me. it's the same after salvation....people may stray and drift b/c of their own sins..they may even live carnally for many years, but if hey are truly saved, the devil cannot grasp them from Him. it's not about us, it's all about what Christ does. and, this is the crux of what makes a man love Jesus conditionally or unconditionally. the more you love Him b/c of what He has done and not out of fear or out of pride, the more you truly learn to love Him for who He is even when your life is falling apart...even when you lose everyone and everything..even if you are homeless or without family or friends. God is always enough. He is always faithful even when we are not. forever and ever. that's the awesomeness about Him. even people who we presume are not saved b/c of their actions, we may one day (as Jesus said) be very much surprised that they are in heaven. even though on earth they openly rebelled and denied HIm (like Peter did..and yet peter will be in heaven with Christ....as well as all the others who denied Him). so, if Peter who forsook Him at the cross will be in heaven, surely everyone who has the Holy spirit dwelling within them right now, will be. b/c God cannot lie. He cannot break His oaths...He would not be holy if He did. He would not be Just or righteous. but HE is. we are not. we will never ever do anything anywhere remotely good enough. we will disappoitn each ohter. we will hurt each other. we will break fellowship with each other and hurt our own selves and our families with our tongues and our actions. but Jesus will always be faithful no matter what we do b/c HE is the ONLY one who is faithful, forever more. praise God.
God bless you brothers and sisters. but i have to get offline as the kids are begging me...
@Christenstein - brother i think you may be apt to explain this better than i can. i have to leave in a few miutes so i cannot continue it,but i trust you'll finish this gently if you can.
Comments (33)
It's easy for me to turn my life over to God but my will? it's an everyday thing.
I'm catholic
I don't really have thoughts on this, but I do have an experience. My sister in law wanted to get married and her pastor wouldn't marry her and her fiance because they lived together before they got married. Now, she's getting married (to a different guy, the last guy turned out to be really creepy) in a catholic church.
I believe in excommunication/disfellowship because it is clearly taught in the Bible.
@TheTheologiansCafe - so do I (that is probably no surprise though)
Those man-made institutions can kid themselves all they want to, once a son of God always a son of God.
@Christenstein - believe in, and confess, a ban, separation, and Christian correction in the church, for amendment, and not for destruction, in order to distinguish that which is pure from the impure: namely, when any one, after he is enlightened, has accepted the knowledge of the truth, and been incorporated into the communion of the saints, sins again unto death, either through willfulness, or through presumption against God, or through some other cause, and falls into the unfruitful works of darkness, thereby becoming separated from God, and forfeiting the kingdom of God, that such a one, after the deed is manifest and sufficiently known to the church, may not remain in the congregation of the righteous, but, as an offensive member and open sinner, shall and must be separated, put away, reproved before all, and purged out as leaven; and this for his amendment, as an example, that others may fear, and to keep the church pure, by cleansing her from such spots, lest, in default of this, the name of the Lord be blasphemed, the church dishonored, and offense given to them that are without; and finally, that the sinner may not be condemned with the world, but become convinced in his mind, and be moved to sorrow, repentance, and reformation. Jer. 59:2; I Cor. 5:5, 13; I Tim. 5:20; I Cor. 5:6; II Cor. 10:8; 13:10.
Further, concerning brotherly reproof or admonition, as also the instruction of the erring it is necessary to exercise all diligence and care, to watch over them and to admonish them with all meekness, that they may be bettered, and to reprove, according as is proper, the stubborn who remain obdurate; in short, the church must put away from her the wicked (either in doctrine or life), and no other. Jas. 5:19; Titus 3:10; I Cor. 5:13.
I believe in withholding the fellowship of Communion, membership, whatever, from those who are clearly living in sin. I have, however, been the personal recipient of the withdrawal of people's interaction, love, and courtesy simply because we differed in some 'gray area' doctrinal issues. (Amish background, that should explain it.) I don't feel the latter is ever right, but the former is. It is only correct if done to an unrepentant person, however; it should never be used as a punishment for someone who has confessed and repented.
I also feel it should be done without exception or respect of persons. For instance, an unrepentant church leader who holds a personal grudge should be as promptly removed as the rebellious young man living with his girlfriend. So many times, we are in a great hurry to throw out faltering new believers, but are ever so careful of a seasoned person's 'reputation'. Respect for leadership should not include tolerating sin.
Just my opinion.
I don't think that is a right thing to do, to essentially kick someone out of church when they need the most help. I can understand making a person in a position of power step down because of the reasons mention, but not to excommunicate them. How do we expect them to come out of their sin without fellowship from other Christians?
@Kristenmomof3 - Once a son of God always a son of God. Nothing can separate a person from the love of Christ Jesus. Dis-fellowshippping or no dis-fellowshipping, once a person is accepts Jesus Christ as Savior with genuine and true faith, the person is always a child of God. The entire notion of dis-fellowshipping and not dis-fellowshipping someone is also meaningless in the protestant context as pointed out in one of the Utube videos. Those man-made protestant institutions can kid themselves all they want, their man-made doctrines can mean expulson in one church and not another. Who are they kidding... The entire secular world looks at Christianity and thinks its a big joke because we cannot argue and now, we are talking about and dis-fellowshpping other Christians while another church accepts them... One for the Kingdome indeed... People should be concentrating on the gospel instead of things that divide. Jesus loves all those who believe in Him.
great post Barry. i like how you explained the pro and con and reasons for caution. thanks brotha. =)
@mikenpeg - i believe in it too, but think it should be done very carefully too. since we are all fallen and prone to sin, we mess up sometimes. i am sorry for what you have been through. i, and some others, have had some unfortunate situations also -- but i've come to forgive and realize what my own hands are capable of - hopefully, like Barry talks about here, the goal should be toward restoration, repentance and reconciliation if possible.
@Christenstein - what are your thoughts on the scripture verses quoted?
@Christenstein - "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." (1 Corinthians 5:11)
@Kristenmomof3 - Under the context of which protestant church doctrine, did you watch that Utube video? Are we discussing what is being posted or an entirely different thing? Quite frankly, I am not arguing about whether we should keep idolaters, fornicators, drunkards, etc. in the church if they are not repentant. I am talking about what is placed here for discussion, the two videos that talks about differences in doctrine.
@AlterEgo909 - yes, i do know what you mean here. i agree that there should be extreme caution, and that people who are messed up in a lot of sin need support. unfortunately, i've known people who were excommunicated who were homeless or had been acting out due to frustration from other victimization they had endured. discernment, humility and seeking God should be paramount before making any rash decisions...but we are all sinners; unfortunately we know how to hurt each other unnecessarily sometimes.
@Christenstein - - yes, i agree about always being a child of God.
@Christenstein - @AlterEgo909 - "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat." (1 Corinthians 5:11)
"A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject." (Titus 3:10.)
This implies that the church disapproves the person as a Christian: it cannot any longer charitably look upon him as a saint, or fellow-worshipper of God, and can do no other than, on the contrary, esteem him an enemy of God, and so doth openly withdraw its charity from him ceasing to acknowledge him as a fellow-Christian, any more than the heathens. He is also cut off from that honour which is due to brethren and fellow-Christians. To be a visible Christian is an honourable character but excommunicated persons forfeit this honour. Christians ought not to pay that honour and respect to them which they pay to others, but should treat them as unworthy of such honour, that they may be ashamed. Christ tells us, they should "be unto us as heathen men and publicans," (Matthew 18:17) which implies a withdrawing from them that common respect which we pay to others. We ought to treat them so as to let them plainly see that we do not count them worthy of it, to put them to shame.
Much love and complacency is due to those whom we are obliged in charity to receive as saints, because they are visible Christians. But this complacency excommunicated persons forfeit. We should still wish well to them. and seek their good. Excommunication itself is to be performed as an act of benevolence. We should seek their good by it, and it is to be used as a means of their eternal salvation. But complacency and delight in them as visible Christians is to be withdrawn; and on the contrary they are to be the objects of displacency, as visibly and apparently wicked. We are to cast them out as an unclean thing which defiles the church of God. - In this sense the psalmist professes a hatred of those who were the visible enemies of God. Psalm 139:21, 22. "Do I not hate them, O Lord, that hate thee! And am I not grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred." Not that he hated them with a hatred of malice or ill will, but with displacency and abhorrence of their wickedness. In this respect we ought to he the children of our Father who is in heaven, who, though he loves many wicked men with a love of benevolence, yet cannot love them with a love of complacency. Thus excommunicated persons are cut off from the charity of the church
2 Thessalonians 3:6. To avoid them;
Romans 16:17. To have no company with them;
2 Thessalonians 3:14. And to treat than as heathens and publicans;
Matthew 18:17. The people of God are, as much as may be, to withdraw from them as to that common society which is proper to subsist among Christians. - Not that they should avoid speaking to them on any occasion. All manner and all degrees of society are not forbidden, but all unnecessary society, or such as is wont to be among those who delight in the company of each other. We should not associate ourselves with them so as to make them our companions. Yea, there ought to be such an avoiding of their company as may show great dislike.
@YouTOme - A very deceptive and dangerous doctrine that is supported by many professing Christians is the concept that is referred to as eternal security or once saved always saved.
These terms refer to a spiritual guarantee that once we have "accepted the Lord Jesus Christ" as our personal Saviour, then we are secure for all of eternity regardless of lifestyle. For a converted person, one whose life has been completely changed, there is, of course, a wonderful feeling of security as we think about eternity. That feeling of security in Jesus Christ will remain with us as long as we walk with the Lord and do His will. In that sense, we can find "eternal security" in our salvation.
However, it is very important that as children of God we recognize that we can walk away from our salvation. If we allow ourselves to go places or engage in activities that expose us to danger, we are tempting God and giving Satan an opportunity to cause spiritual shipwreck. These unwholesome activities can weaken our resistance and may cause us to fall.
Numerous passages of scripture state clearly that it is possible for a child of God to return to sin. "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" (I Tim. 4:1). "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee" (I Tim. 4:16).
Paul was instructing Timothy to be watchful of the false doctrine he would encounter that could deceive him and cause him to be careless. Several words in these passages are especially important "depart" and "continue". Clearly we cannot depart from something we never had, nor can we "continue" something we have not begun. Therefore, we are sure that Paul was speaking to Timothy about converted people.
In the last days, there will be believers who will be convinced to turn away from Christ and return to sin. There will also be those who grow impatient for Christ's return. They will be deceived and will try to convince others that the promises God made about Christ's return to claim his bride, the Church, are false. "...there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, where is the promise of his coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation" (II Pet. 3:3-4). We must patiently continue to "hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown' (Rev. 3:11).
In the Book of Revelation, John wrote about those who at one time had placed the Lord first in their lives but had allowed themselves to grow careless and were very much in danger of losing their place in God's favor. "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works, or else I will come unto thee quickly, and remove thy candlestick out of his place..." (Rev. 2:4-5).
We take great comfort in the promise that "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,..." (Rev. 3:5). This would certainly indicate that the faithful, the overcomers, will retain their place in the Book of Life. The importance of this is emphasized when John wrote "...and another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books,..." (Rev. 20:12).
Jesus explained to His disciples of the dangers and deceit that His followers would face before the end times. There will be false teachers and much sin in the world. "And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" (Matt. 24:11-12). The only way for love to wax cold is for it to exist. Again, clearly Christ was speaking of those who once loved the Lord but allowed sin to intervene and their love for Christ grew cold.
Jesus Christ did not leave His disciples without hope. He promised them "But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved" (Matt. 24:13). This beautiful promise would not have been needed unless there was a danger of falling away.
Not only do we need to be careful that we are not deceived by others, we must be careful that self-confidence does not cause us to grow careless. "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (I Cor. 10:12). We must also remain dependent upon the Lord to keep us safe and in His love. "How excellent is thy loving kindness, 0 God! Therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings" (Ps. 36:7).
In addition to the danger of puffing trust in ourselves and losing our salvation, we must also not put our trust in riches. "...an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:.. following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness" (II Pet. 2:14-15).
Numerous other scripture passages could be cited that help us understand the false doctrine of once saved, always saved. Time and space do not permit a complete list but a few more are simply listed without comment. "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:62). "But now, after ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage" (Ga. 4:9). "But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, the dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire" (II Pet. 2:22).
In spite of the seriousness and frequency of the warning in the Holy Scriptures that those who have become followers of Christ would return to sin and lose their salvation, there is no need for a child of God to despair. To each of the seven churches that are addressed in Revelation, a promise of a secure eternity was made to those that overcome and remain faithful. That promise is still in effect for us today.
@Christenstein -
also "For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world" (II Tim. 4:10).
"Holding faith, and a good conscience, which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme" (I Tim. 1:19, 20).
"But now, after that ye [Galatians] have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?. . .I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain" (Gal. 4:9, 11).
@YouTOme - @Christenstein - also
No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God" (Luke 9:62).
"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God" (Heb. 3:12).
"Remember Lot's wife" (Luke 17:32).
"Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief" (Heb. 4:11).
"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (I Cor. 10:12).
"Beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness" (II Pet. 3:17).
"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me . . . If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned . . . If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love" (John 15:4, 6, 10).
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame" (Heb. 6:4-6).
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (II Thess. 2:3).
Our eternal destiny is conditional not only on our becoming a child of God, but on remaining one --persevering in the faith unto death. "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God (II Cor. 7:1).
"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (II Pet. 1:10, 11).
@Kristenmomof3 - Yes, that's what the Bible says. You are missing my pooint. The first Utube video makes a point about how it pointless and it is even more pointless when you look at the entire excommunication process from the secular perspective. It only works if Christians are united and with one mind and thought (i.e. it has a greater meaning in the Catholic church).
That's why we need Christ as our head and the church needs to be a spiritual church led by the Holy Spirit, not man-made institutions. The church of Joe can excommunicate Jane and Jane can join the church of Doe. Jane can join another group of believers that agree with doctrine A while believers that do not agree with doctrine A excommunicates her. I am not discussion reasons 1 and 2. I am discussing reason 3. There is this contradictory communication because they are both man-made institutions.
@Christenstein - so are you saying we should not follow the bible because they can just go find a sinfull pool to wash it. Then how would the church be salt and light? Should we not hold the standard of the bible. On judgment day do you think that it will be ok to say to YHWH "well we didn't hold standard because then people would have just went elsewhere?" Letting the rest of the church to be corrupted by the sin. The bible is clear...A little leaven, leavens the whole batch
This is probably the toughest question I could ever be asked. I think the believer disfellowships himself or herself apart from any act of the church by sinning. Attendance at church and interaction with believers becomes empty. The formal act is necessary though, for both the sake of the body and the sake of the individual. The body must remain pure, and the individual must be brought to stark and painful awareness of their separation. Upon repentance, I do think that a believer should be readmitted without further conditions. The permanent excommunication of a believer constitutes condemnation, which I believe to be a grave mistake.
Yahshua called Simon "Rock", even though he knew that Simon would eventually deny him three times. Yahshua knew what "Peter" would become, and looked beyond his transgression on the day they met. When Peter denied Yahshua, he wept bitterly without anyone's accusation or condemnation - Peter felt separation. But look how he finished.
@Kristenmomof3 - - but you see, that increases pride and fear amongst us if we think that we have to strive or work to secure our salvation. that makes the cross not enough. but the cross is enough. His mercy and grace is more than enough -- especially for the sinner next to him on the cross..he did nothing to earn his salvation. it was all grace. it's all about HIm. but see, when the focus is on what we do, then we will always fail. even good intentioned, we will never have the goodness enough in us to perpetuate salvation for ourselves. no, only Christ alone can give us the love for one another and even for Him. when i was deserving of it the very least, God saved me. it's the same after salvation....people may stray and drift b/c of their own sins..they may even live carnally for many years, but if hey are truly saved, the devil cannot grasp them from Him. it's not about us, it's all about what Christ does. and, this is the crux of what makes a man love Jesus conditionally or unconditionally. the more you love Him b/c of what He has done and not out of fear or out of pride, the more you truly learn to love Him for who He is even when your life is falling apart...even when you lose everyone and everything..even if you are homeless or without family or friends. God is always enough. He is always faithful even when we are not. forever and ever. that's the awesomeness about Him. even people who we presume are not saved b/c of their actions, we may one day (as Jesus said) be very much surprised that they are in heaven. even though on earth they openly rebelled and denied HIm (like Peter did..and yet peter will be in heaven with Christ....as well as all the others who denied Him). so, if Peter who forsook Him at the cross will be in heaven, surely everyone who has the Holy spirit dwelling within them right now, will be. b/c God cannot lie. He cannot break His oaths...He would not be holy if He did. He would not be Just or righteous. but HE is. we are not. we will never ever do anything anywhere remotely good enough. we will disappoitn each ohter. we will hurt each other. we will break fellowship with each other and hurt our own selves and our families with our tongues and our actions. but Jesus will always be faithful no matter what we do b/c HE is the ONLY one who is faithful, forever more. praise God.
God bless you brothers and sisters. but i have to get offline as the kids are begging me...
@Christenstein - brother i think you may be apt to explain this better than i can. i have to leave in a few miutes so i cannot continue it,but i trust you'll finish this gently if you can.